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	<title>Comments on: proof that I&#8217;m a die-hard optimist</title>
	<atom:link href="http://leavingeden.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/proof-that-im-a-die-hard-optimist/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://leavingeden.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/proof-that-im-a-die-hard-optimist/</link>
	<description>an undercover atheist at a christian college.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: sentientholon</title>
		<link>http://leavingeden.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/proof-that-im-a-die-hard-optimist/#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>sentientholon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 19:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leavingeden.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/proof-that-im-a-die-hard-optimist/#comment-246</guid>
		<description>The fact that we want to have mutual respect and exchange of views with friends or family who are Christians is important, but I think Vince has raised a very crucial point that shouldn't be overlooked.  Those of us who have left Christianity because of philosophical reasons -- and aren't just mad at God for something, which of course implies that he still exists very powerfully for them -- have done so because the hard-won truth, as we believe and experience it, is important enough for us to make really difficult personal sacrifices to live authentically.

Some people who choose to be Christian make similar personal sacrifices for similar reasons.  The truth, as &lt;i&gt;they&lt;/i&gt; now believe and experience it, is also that important.  If they really could listen and &lt;i&gt;accept&lt;/i&gt; your atheism as OK, they would not really, by definition, be Christians.

On the other hand, I think what you're &lt;i&gt;actually&lt;/i&gt; looking for isn't acceptance of your views by Christians, anymore than you could accept theirs (or else you'd still be one) -- but acceptance of your &lt;i&gt;self&lt;/i&gt; as a seeker after truth -- real, actual truth, that both you and your Christian friends believe passionately exists and is important enough to change your life for.

I have a Christian friend like this, and it's both frustrating and rewarding to interact with his ideas and let them help challenge and shape and refine my own.  I don't always like it, a lot of times I don't at all actually, but it ends up being rewarding in the long run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that we want to have mutual respect and exchange of views with friends or family who are Christians is important, but I think Vince has raised a very crucial point that shouldn&#8217;t be overlooked.  Those of us who have left Christianity because of philosophical reasons &#8212; and aren&#8217;t just mad at God for something, which of course implies that he still exists very powerfully for them &#8212; have done so because the hard-won truth, as we believe and experience it, is important enough for us to make really difficult personal sacrifices to live authentically.</p>
<p>Some people who choose to be Christian make similar personal sacrifices for similar reasons.  The truth, as <i>they</i> now believe and experience it, is also that important.  If they really could listen and <i>accept</i> your atheism as OK, they would not really, by definition, be Christians.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I think what you&#8217;re <i>actually</i> looking for isn&#8217;t acceptance of your views by Christians, anymore than you could accept theirs (or else you&#8217;d still be one) &#8212; but acceptance of your <i>self</i> as a seeker after truth &#8212; real, actual truth, that both you and your Christian friends believe passionately exists and is important enough to change your life for.</p>
<p>I have a Christian friend like this, and it&#8217;s both frustrating and rewarding to interact with his ideas and let them help challenge and shape and refine my own.  I don&#8217;t always like it, a lot of times I don&#8217;t at all actually, but it ends up being rewarding in the long run.</p>
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		<title>By: JT</title>
		<link>http://leavingeden.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/proof-that-im-a-die-hard-optimist/#comment-233</link>
		<dc:creator>JT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 01:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leavingeden.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/proof-that-im-a-die-hard-optimist/#comment-233</guid>
		<description>I think what the first two posts are missing is this: love.  Love your neighbor.  In the words of Mother Teresa:

"There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as EQUAL before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. We believe our work should be our EXAMPLE to people. We have among us 475 souls - 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs—all different religions. But they all come to our prayers."

Why?  Because they were loved as equals by people who wanted them to be the best that they could be.  Whether they were Christian was moot.  

It may seem loving to try to convince someone of your beliefs, but how many times have you been in a discussion by someone who thought they had the world figured out and that it was their job to convince you of something--feel loved or offended?  Now, what about someone who was simply willing to listen and try to help you in what you were dealing with at that moment.  To have compassion.  That's love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what the first two posts are missing is this: love.  Love your neighbor.  In the words of Mother Teresa:</p>
<p>&#8220;There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as EQUAL before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. We believe our work should be our EXAMPLE to people. We have among us 475 souls - 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs—all different religions. But they all come to our prayers.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why?  Because they were loved as equals by people who wanted them to be the best that they could be.  Whether they were Christian was moot.  </p>
<p>It may seem loving to try to convince someone of your beliefs, but how many times have you been in a discussion by someone who thought they had the world figured out and that it was their job to convince you of something&#8211;feel loved or offended?  Now, what about someone who was simply willing to listen and try to help you in what you were dealing with at that moment.  To have compassion.  That&#8217;s love.</p>
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		<title>By: Vince</title>
		<link>http://leavingeden.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/proof-that-im-a-die-hard-optimist/#comment-232</link>
		<dc:creator>Vince</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 23:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leavingeden.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/proof-that-im-a-die-hard-optimist/#comment-232</guid>
		<description>I like the degree of honesty this blog usually exhibits (excepting the anonymity, which strikes me as disingenuous), and it is usually well written. However, the illogic of this entry does it no credit. Both you and your Christian friends believe there is a truth about reality, although you disagree with one another about what that truth is. (Isn't why this blog even exists?) More to the point, the Christian's version of reality includes the belief that atheists are not just mildly mistaken, but are in mortal danger. 

It's all very well to ruminate about the benefits of chatting casually with people of vitally different beliefs from your own, and how mutually valuable that is. But if a friend of yours were happily explaining how he had finally been thrilled to come to the realization that he was actually a poached egg, your response would not likely be one of nods and grins--you would be genuinely concerned for his welfare. If his response then was one of irritation for your over-concern with his (to you) obviously false and probably dangerous version of reality, it is unlikely the two of you will be able to have many of those pleasant conversations about your opposing views. You will either have to avoid discussing the drastic differences in your views ("it's hard for them to go there," says Helen above), or you will have to avoid each other (transfer to a different environment?), or you will discuss the views and rub each other the wrong way. I do not think a true friend would support and encourage the development of the poached egg theory. 

You may not like what your Christian friends think about your self-declared religious status, but it would hardly be consistent within the Christian belief system for them to ignore your (to them) drastically incorrect and dangerous new view of "reality," at least if they care about you at all. Discussing matters of deep difference on the way the cosmos is structured is on an entirely different plane from discussing whether or not you each like a certain style of music, or what is the best kind of pie, or whether "Family Guy" is funny or stupid. I could be friends with you and not worry about our differing opinions on those matters any more than as a passing interest, but if you tell me you have decided you are an egg, I would think you're really, really wrong on a basic level about the truths of the universe--perhaps dangerously so--and I would not be able to keep still about that very easily if I really were your friend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the degree of honesty this blog usually exhibits (excepting the anonymity, which strikes me as disingenuous), and it is usually well written. However, the illogic of this entry does it no credit. Both you and your Christian friends believe there is a truth about reality, although you disagree with one another about what that truth is. (Isn&#8217;t why this blog even exists?) More to the point, the Christian&#8217;s version of reality includes the belief that atheists are not just mildly mistaken, but are in mortal danger. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s all very well to ruminate about the benefits of chatting casually with people of vitally different beliefs from your own, and how mutually valuable that is. But if a friend of yours were happily explaining how he had finally been thrilled to come to the realization that he was actually a poached egg, your response would not likely be one of nods and grins&#8211;you would be genuinely concerned for his welfare. If his response then was one of irritation for your over-concern with his (to you) obviously false and probably dangerous version of reality, it is unlikely the two of you will be able to have many of those pleasant conversations about your opposing views. You will either have to avoid discussing the drastic differences in your views (&#8221;it&#8217;s hard for them to go there,&#8221; says Helen above), or you will have to avoid each other (transfer to a different environment?), or you will discuss the views and rub each other the wrong way. I do not think a true friend would support and encourage the development of the poached egg theory. </p>
<p>You may not like what your Christian friends think about your self-declared religious status, but it would hardly be consistent within the Christian belief system for them to ignore your (to them) drastically incorrect and dangerous new view of &#8220;reality,&#8221; at least if they care about you at all. Discussing matters of deep difference on the way the cosmos is structured is on an entirely different plane from discussing whether or not you each like a certain style of music, or what is the best kind of pie, or whether &#8220;Family Guy&#8221; is funny or stupid. I could be friends with you and not worry about our differing opinions on those matters any more than as a passing interest, but if you tell me you have decided you are an egg, I would think you&#8217;re really, really wrong on a basic level about the truths of the universe&#8211;perhaps dangerously so&#8211;and I would not be able to keep still about that very easily if I really were your friend.</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://leavingeden.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/proof-that-im-a-die-hard-optimist/#comment-231</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 16:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leavingeden.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/proof-that-im-a-die-hard-optimist/#comment-231</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Atheism hasn’t made me a worse person, and I’m satisfied that it’s the right thing for me. If you can accept that&lt;/em&gt;

I'm not sure this is a realistic bar to shoot for...I don't see how you will get (some) Christians to accept atheism is 'right' for anyone. Asking them to accept that is asking them to greatly change their belief system. 

I think it's reasonable to say "I know you're not happy about me being an atheist but can we see if we can be friends anyway?"

Also, expecting Christians to want to hear about your life as a spiritual atheist might not work either, because they just can't go there emotionally. I find I have to avoid certain subjects with some Christians because it's just too hard for them to go there. 

If I let them talk about their spiritual lives it makes them comfortable and it's almost like they forget I'm not a Christian anymore if I listen affirmingly - so I just let it go and listen *sigh*...I want my relationships to work...

It's just not an even playing field. You have a tolerance for hearing about their life that they have been trained not to have for hearing about yours :( You might disagree with aspects of their life but you aren't being twisted in emotional knots inside about them being eternallly tortured or causing God great grief.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Atheism hasn’t made me a worse person, and I’m satisfied that it’s the right thing for me. If you can accept that</em></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure this is a realistic bar to shoot for&#8230;I don&#8217;t see how you will get (some) Christians to accept atheism is &#8216;right&#8217; for anyone. Asking them to accept that is asking them to greatly change their belief system. </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s reasonable to say &#8220;I know you&#8217;re not happy about me being an atheist but can we see if we can be friends anyway?&#8221;</p>
<p>Also, expecting Christians to want to hear about your life as a spiritual atheist might not work either, because they just can&#8217;t go there emotionally. I find I have to avoid certain subjects with some Christians because it&#8217;s just too hard for them to go there. </p>
<p>If I let them talk about their spiritual lives it makes them comfortable and it&#8217;s almost like they forget I&#8217;m not a Christian anymore if I listen affirmingly - so I just let it go and listen *sigh*&#8230;I want my relationships to work&#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just not an even playing field. You have a tolerance for hearing about their life that they have been trained not to have for hearing about yours <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> You might disagree with aspects of their life but you aren&#8217;t being twisted in emotional knots inside about them being eternallly tortured or causing God great grief.</p>
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